Your hosts, Nathalie Nadeau Mijal and Kelly Johnson, interview Brian Arthur, who was the second director of the Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI). He held this post between 1976 and 1980. Originally from the United Kingdom, Brian Arthur became a world-renowned expert in the conservation of pottery (or as he calls it, "sticking pots together"). He moved to Canada in the early 1970s to work at the Historic Sites Division of Parks Canada. In this episode, you will discover how he guided CCI through challenging early days to become a worldwide leader in conservation. "CCI and CHIN: In Our Words" is a podcast for museum and heritage professionals who want a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the work of the Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) and the Canadian Heritage Information Network (CHIN).
Your hosts, Nathalie Nadeau Mijal and Kelly Johnson, interview Brian Arthur, who was the second director of the Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI). He held this post between 1976 and 1980. Originally from the United Kingdom, Brian Arthur became a world-renowned expert in the conservation of pottery (or as he calls it, "sticking pots together"). He moved to Canada in the early 1970s to work at the Historic Sites Division of Parks Canada. In this episode, you will discover how he guided CCI through challenging early days to become a worldwide leader in conservation.
Watch Brian Arthur working on the restoration of an object for the Canadian Museum of History in “The Restoration of the Michipicoten Pot – The Pot's Background, Strategy and Preparation (1).”
Send us an email with your comments, questions, or suggestions for future interviews at pch.ICCservices-CCIServices.pch@canada.ca
Stay in touch by following us on Facebook.
Enjoy the show? Leave us a review!
More about CCI-CHIN:
CCI, a Special Operating Agency within the Department of Canadian Heritage, advances and promotes the conservation of Canada's heritage collections through its expertise in conservation science, treatment and preventive conservation. CCI works with heritage institutions and professionals to ensure these heritage collections are preserved and accessible to Canadians now and in the future.
CHIN, a Special Operating Agency within the Department of Canadian Heritage, offers valuable collections management resources to the Canadian museum community and online public access to millions of collections records. CHIN assists Canadian museums in documenting, managing, and sharing information about their collections, which in turn ensures that this information is accessible now and in the future.
Credits:
Thank you to our guest, Brian Arthur.
CCI and CHIN: In Our Words is a production of the Canadian Conservation Institute, Department of Canadian Heritage
Nathalie Nadeau Mijal, Producer and Co-host
Kelly Johnson, Co-host
Pop-Up Podcasting, Production assistance
Music by Lee Rosevere
Duration: 00:43:40
[Music: “We Don’t Know How it Ends” by Lee Rosevere from the album “Music for Podcasts 6.” Style: Electronic Minimalism]
Brian Arthur (BA): In three years, you were to make the CCI the most important conservation Institute in the world. If you can't do that say now because if you don't do that will put you in a rowing boat with one oar and push you back to England.
Nathalie Nadeau Mijal (NNM): I'm Nathalie Nadeau Mijal and this is "CCI and CHIN: In Our Words".
NNM: Today's episode is truly special; Kelly Johnson and I interviewed Brian Arthur, he was the second director-general of the Canadian Conservation Institute from 1976 to 1980. The first DG Nathan Stolow passed away in 2014, so in many ways Brian Arthur is the only person who can give us insight into the very early years of CCI. When Brian Arthur was hired, the Institute had only existed for about three years and was experiencing some significant early challenges. It could be said that he rescued the organization, hiring new staff, officially opening the new headquarters on Innes Road and building the national and international reputation of CCI. He is also, the one we have to thank for what was arguably CCI's most popular program ever, the mobile labs. In the late 1970s and early 1980s, CCI experts boarded retrofitted vans that were basically mini laboratories and traveled the nation, offering conservation services to regional museums. It is likely that there will be a full episode of the podcast devoted to this topic in the future. Among his many other achievements, Brian Arthur became a world expert in the conservation of pottery or as he calls it, "sticking pots together". You'll hear from his accent that he is originally from England, so our first question is why did Brian Arthur come to Canada?
BA: In the 70s, I was employed as chief conservation officer with the Oxford City & County Museum, and my director one day said to me, "did you see that position advertised with the National Historic Site Service in Canada?" And I said no, "were you encouraging me to go?" and she said, "I think you ought to apply for it, yes”. So I applied for it and I had a telephone call from the Public Service Commission, I think it was, saying, "Do you want to accept this position with National Historic Sites, and would you like to come to Canada?" and I said yes that is why I applied, and they said, "Well that's fine, we can set up to move you and your family here." So they arranged and I flew over and it was the terrible winter of 1970 I think. We appeared in Ottawa and that’s how I came to Canada.
I should say it was a position not just to set up conservation laboratories in Ottawa, but regional ones, but they offered me the job because they knew I had some experience of a lot of Saxon and archaeological sites and some Viking sites, and what they wanted me to do was confirm that the site in Newfoundland was truly a Viking site, which there was a lot of argument and debate about, as
you can imagine. So I spent the first year or two in Newfoundland, proving I hope, that it was a a National Historic Site and of course a World Heritage Site now.
Kelly Johnson (KJ): And how long did you work there?
BA: I was up and down because I was trying to set up laboratories up and down to Newfoundland over 2 or 3 years and eventually we were able to hire the viking archaeologist and he came and lived and worked for the federal government.
NNM: Hmm… What did you make of L' Anse aux Meadows when you first got there?
BA: I thought it was the most beautiful place on the earth, and I encourage all the Canadians I meet to go there. My friend, Charles Hett who has seen more of the world I suspect than I have, used to roll up his trousers and get a forked stick - he'd make a stick with fork and wade out in to the bay and there were lots of little flatfish: plaice, dabs and flounders-- so big-- and he used to fill the buckets up with them and we would have them for supper. It is a very romantic place.
So, I come back. I'm very happy with Historic Sites. I still think it's the best department to work for in
Canada because everybody from the Minister down is interested in the environment, in the animals or something. They’re all professionals in that way so they understand about conservation of course.
So I was very happy and then one morning, I had a telephone call at 2:30 in the morning, and a lady said, “This is Jennifer McQueen is that Brian Arthur?” and I said “yes”, she said, “you met me at a party about six weeks ago and you talked about how sad you were about what had happened to CCI which had been set up and falling into disrepair.”
And we talked briefly about the Canadian Conservation Institute CCI and the trouble she was having running it and and that sort of thing. And I knew they’d fired the director. So she said to me at 2:30 in the morning, “Would you like to be the next director of the CCI?” And I said, “Well I would certainly think about it. But I want you to know I am very happy where I am with Historic Sites,” and she said, “Could you come for an interview in the morning?” So I went to this office. It was a very small office, and Bernard Ostry, who was then the Secretary General of the museums corporation, was sat in the window sill, and Jennifer and I sat at a small table and we talked for 5-10 minutes and I noticed Bernard wasn't asking any questions and so I thought I ought to talk a bit longer. It's very easy for me to talk, I suppose. And after about five minutes, I saw Jennifer going like this, so I stopped.
Bernard said thank you very much for coming and he left and Jennifer said, "Why did you go on talking so much?" I said, “Because he hadn't asked any questions.” And she said, "Didn't I make it clear? We're offering you the job." And I said, “Well that's nice to know, but you understand I'm very happy where I am, and Historic Sites is big regional organization now for conservation and I would have to give three months’ notice, I think.” And she said, "It's not necessary. I talked with your Deputy last night, and you can start tomorrow." And she said, “Make sure your passport's up to date and what not, because we're flying to Venice,” I think it was; there was a big ICOM conference going on there, and I was chairing half of it.
The previous Director General of CCI was Nathan Stolow. He'd gone, but he'd set up interviews with conservators in Europe, different towns. Jennifer wanted that we would go and hold those interviews while this conference was going on. We went with Joe Dorning, who at that time did all the staffing for science programs in the government and certainly most of them for CCI, for a long while. So to make it legal and we could hire people on the spot, he was with the Public Service Commission. We went off and hired people and it was kind of difficult, because I hadn't set foot in the CCI and I was hiring staff. Luckily, I'd kept up to track with what the CCI was supposed to do.
So, when we came back from Venice, I turned up at the CCI and it had been run in the absence of a DG by a group of seven conservators and scientists, I think they were sort of split half-and-half and they were called the Silver Seven. They were referred to as such within the Institute and I came up into my office, which was up here somewhere and in the office, they had set up an old-fashioned toilet, you know with the cistern and a chain and a copy of Sears catalog. And the Silver Seven said, "We don't want you interfering too much so we fixed a toilet in your office with Sears catalog to entertain you." So, [laughter] I said, " Oh yes, I said well, perhaps I ought to tell you how I'm going to proceed as I'm now director here." I said, "I should be very grateful for help and advice from you as a group and individually, but I have to tell you, having a group like the Silver Seven advising me is not how I intend to direct the operation."
I very rapidly discovered there was considerable antagonism between the scientists and the conservators here. I mean, they didn't speak to each other, life was made difficult for each of them. It was all very difficult when I came in this group still thinking they were going to control the place and I clearly wasn’t going to allow that. So I explained to them I was quite prepared to, once a week, once a month, once a week to start with, having meetings with the chiefs of the different departments and they could tell me what they wanted and I would tell them what I thought the direction should be.
I was prepared to do that and I was quite prepared to have meetings once a month with all the staff if that was so wished. So, we moved on with that. The antagonism was still with there.
NNM: Why? Why did the scientists and the conservators have such a difficult relationship?
BA: The conservators thought they should be telling the scientists what areas of their work they needed help with. The scientists and some were quite difficult personalities at that time; thought conservators really didn't know anything. They didn't know any science, chemistry, physics, anything. It was the duty of the scientists to sort of give them advice and steer them on the right course. So neither side cared for the other, it was made worse I think by this building. At that time, all the conservators were downstairs and there was this walkway, I presume it's still there, at the top where the scientists used to go and stand out in the mornings and watch the fine art people restoring paintings. Then a coffee break when they were all together tell them, "You did that wrong".
KJ: Wow.
BA: The conservators felt they were being overlooked, but eventually we got over that.
The other major problem when I came was that, I can't remember the exact number, I think there was about eight young people, students, who'd been hired with the promise that they would be taught conservation and given some sort of degree or diploma. That was Nathan's idea, Nathan Stolow, a previous director. And that, you know, so many hours a week would be spent with the appropriate scientists and professors and so much time, bench time. The problem with that was that education was part of the provinces’ political sphere and the feds couldn't set up a course like that. Especially as we were partially funding the conservation course at Queen’s, which had just started. So one of my first, very sad duties, was to explain to these young people; well we are going to do the best with you we can as trainees and I personally, if you want to go out and do theory somewhere else in the world, we will try and fund that.
And in fact, I think we sent two of the people to the Istituto Centrale in Rome, which is the Rome Institute, but lots of them, five or six mainly ladies, were very disgruntled about it. Some went to the regional laboratories to work, and some people left all together. So that was a very difficult start for the Institute There was a lot of major theft of equipment going on.When I came everybody was worried, you know. There was research going on that if there were power blackouts we couldn't cope, so there were two large generators we could fire up downstairs. One had gone missing and then another went missing, but I guess people did not realize with the corps of commissionaires, we'd got contacts on all the doors and if people stayed at night, you could trace them round on the log sheet and we
could tell he had gone into the storage room, gone out the back.
So I had to fire, I don't know, quite a lot of people when I first came. There was another gentleman who was a fine art conservator who had been working with some art galleries in the prairies and I guess you understand that there are lots of really good copies of important paintings. I mean lots of copies that
people are still arguing about. What this guy was doing was forging signatures for these galleries and he worked for me.
KJ: Here? Well, at the time, at CCI?
BA: Yes he was a fine art conservator. I had call from the RCMP, an Inspector came and he said, "You know we've been working on this case, not here, but we've tracked it down, and it's one of your guys who's putting signatures on and we want you to talk to him and we'll set up the recording stuff."
NNM: So you had to wear a wire to catch him?
BA: Yes and the RCMP inspector was in what used to be the coffee room on my office and I explained to this guy that I had no absolute proof, but I suspected he was doing this. The staff fine art conservators still know him; I can tell you his name, as Mr. Brillo. The conservators, fine art conservators, always said that he cleaned his paintings with the brillo pad. [laughter] So I suspected he was into other trouble as well and he came one day after I talked to him and I said, "Look are you going to admit you do this, or are the police just going to drag you out?" sort of thing and he came with the Queen's Counsel, which petrified me to death, with his own recording gear and sat there and said, “I'm listening to every word Mr. Arthur”. So, I said, “Well, you know I'm going to talk to my superiors and I would like the department's lawyer here as well. If you want to know my views personally off the record, I think we can prove this gentleman was forging these paintings. But if you want to argue about it I'd like a lawyer here for me and for the Institute.”
It was all handled quietly in the end by the government, I think. There was no big deal about it
He had to leave and so there was that, but the biggest problem were the students that were no longer students, or interns, they were sort of casual employees, so those were the early days.
KJ: And what happened with the first director, Nathan Stolow?
BA: He was jointly the Director of Conservation for the National Gallery, so it was a very difficult situation. There were lots of reasons the government didn't want to get into a full-blown scandal at that time with somebody who was still working for another institution. But anyway it all died away in the end and Nathan who sadly died last year, was really one of the world's great experts and he's the guy who a few years ago, about three years ago, designed the case for the American Papers of Independence, that great document. It's all now in the case which Nathan designed and sadly died a few months after. But he moved on in conservation and wrote eminent papers. But politically it was impossible for him to stay. If he hadn't gone, I couldn't have taken the job, and politics would have been a terrible problem.
So we had very happy relationship with Queen's University with Ian our agency and went on funding that organization as part of the University and Ian Hodkinson has told me quite often we couldn't have run the course without the money. The money was funneled through the Institute and what
used to be the Heritage Information Network. We used to put money together, it was all quite different in those days. It would go to Ian and to Queen’s University of course and so in later years, of course lots of the people came back so we got peace and tranquility in the Institute finally.
We hired some people from Europe, some very eminent people.
KJ: How many people would you say came out of that trip that you took at the very beginning?
BA: I'm guessing now, over a three, four-year period, we hired about 10 people. Not all from Europe, I mean some from Africa, some eminent people from Africa. I remember this one guy from Africa, he had taken a trip across the Sahara, a one man trip. Jennifer said to him, why would you do that, how did you do it? He said, "But I had a bottle of Coca-Cola". And she said, "But surely one bottle of Coca-Cola wouldn't have seen you through the Sahara" and I remember him laughing. He came and he was very funny guy and he said, "No you misunderstand man, I wasn't drinking it, I was banging myself on the head with it keep myself awake". Those were the sort of interviews we had with Jennifer, of course she hired him on the spot.
NNM: And the reason that you were hiring all of these people from outside of Canada was
because there was no? There were no...
BA: There were one or two conservators, mainly fine arts conservators, there were I think, almost no artifacts conservators which was my concern, being an artifact conservator. So we've got to get these people in and meet my mandate. The only instructions I was given, I was to become chairman of ICOM Canada, this International Council of Museums. Jennifer said, "We know all about you and what you've done around the world, we've checked, you are to become chairperson of the Canadian group of ICOM in one year. Bernard said, "And in three years you are to make CCI the most important conservation institute in the world. If you can't do that say it now, because if you don't do that, we'll put you in a rowing boat with one oar and push you back to England." [laughter] Those were my instructions, which I hope I fulfilled. I became chairman in Canada and in fact, in two years, I became Chairman of the Advisory Council of ICOM, which is all the chairmen, chair-ladies as well, from around the world. I was their chairman in Paris and even though I left the Institute after four years, I will forever say good things about the Canadian government as I went to, what was then the new Museum of Man.
But I kept up very close liaison and many of my successors here became chairman of the International Committee in Paris, Conservation Committee. But after that, my first concern then was, I'd met with Mr. Pelletier, who took over culture with the close attention of the Prime Minister then and he was the guy who said that the Federal Government should decentralize its cultural and heritage activities all across the country. It was paid for by people all across the country and it was bad enough that both, or three national museums at that time were in Ottawa, but for God's sake, let's make the Institute and all the other organizations we're setting up with the museums corporation, which was part of Mr. Pelletier's-- he had set up the Corporation, where to spread it all across the country, so my concern then was, how do we do that? And he'd clearly explained I was to set up regional laboratories so said that men negotiating with curators, librarians, deputy ministers of culture, in the provinces who were all incredibly kind to me, as still somewhat of a newcomer, because we were giving things and giving a service and money, which is always acceptable in the provinces. But, they were concerned what control they would have over those services, because they understood they weren't paying for them, but it was their cultural property that would be going through. So, we set up advisory councils in Ontario, in the Prairies, in BC, in the Atlantic region and in Quebec, which is a whole separate problem.
Not all those positions got staff, the directorship for the Prairies, was never staffed, so we had an agreement with the provinces that we would have advisory councils, they were called, I still call them, committees. There would ideally be a librarian, a curator (could be fine arts or archeology) and some important person in culture. We tried to get about four or five people on these committees. They weren't paid, their expenses were paid and my executive assistant then became the executive assistant for these committees. It was Janet Bridgeland first of all, they were allowed to write their minutes with Janet, which I couldn't veto. That was very important for the provinces and that those reports would go to the Secretary General of the Corporation afterwards. The Deputy, I got them to read, and I could object if I wanted to, but it became very important and very, very useful and I so wish it was still there, sadly, it isn't. It was important because quite often, the Institute will be asked to treat a painting, artifacts rare books and whatnot and the committee, in one case, it was a rare book, a very rare book and we were going to treat it, you know, it is a very important book. Book folks here would love to get their hands on it and the curator, who was a fine arts person from the provincial gallery, said "But we've got three other copies in the province". Mr. Arthur" I said, "Oh my god, I didn't know that. I thought this was the one copy." And so he said "You're going to put aside two years of work by a paper conservator?” And, we thought, no way. And so that was the advice they could give us, like you've been asked to do this painting, but we thought two other copies and the one, the galleries had contacted us directly in Ottawa, so it was terribly, terribly useful for the things we treated. Also as a great lobby politically, which I wasn't supposed to have anything to do with, of course. They were quite happy to spread the word and once a year, they met in Ottawa with the Deputy or the Secretary General of the
Corporation.
At that time, and I think that's the thing on behalf of the Institute I miss most, because it kept Ottawa in touch with the provinces and the sort of artifacts they valued. I think after that with their encouragement, we decided to set up a mobile laboratory service and a big exhibition, which was all the ground floor at the Institute at that time called, "A Future for the Past" which upset the directors of the National Museums, because they thought the Institute had no business. I mean, we had queues outside to get in to see it.
NNM: I think that was the one and only exhibition that CCI held.
BA: Yes, it started my demise. Government people add me on the list for the chopping block.
NNM: Put you on a watch list?
BA: Yes, but it was fabulous. It was one of the best exhibitions, people came from all over the world to see it. Director of the Smithsonian came.
NNM: So what was in this exhibition?
BA: Well it was called "A Future for the Past" and there was a painting that was decaying and then we had the whole story and pictures and texts bilingually of what the conservators were going to do to it before and after. Because we used things from the past and we were able to beg some quite old
paintings that people didn't mind being destroyed and the science department were putting thin sections and UV fire infrared photographs in there, so all that was in there, but I'm not a scientist. If I couldn't understand what they were doing, it didn't get put in, which upset my friends and science lab.
But I said, you know these are people off the street, interested people who are coming to see it and they’ve got to understand it.
So we spent quite a lot of time and money. Jennifer McQueen, who was still my boss at that stage, was away in the Bahamas I think, and we ran out of money.
And I needed $45,000, I remember it clearly, and so I went down to Bernard Ostry and said could you come out and have coffee or lunch here next week? "So what are you trying to get from me?" he said. [laughter] I said, "Money". "Well you can tell me now and I still come out next week". I said, "We need 45 thousand". "Well, why didn't you say that?" he said, and he called in his assistant, "How much money
does Jennifer have left in her budget? And they said whatever it was, I was not privy to that it was quiet conversation, "Yes, you can have 45 thousand from Jennifer’s budget."
Oh God! Anyway, we finished the exhibit and I think it was truly wonderful. Somewhere there is some documentary film; I was never able to track it down where it was. And a lot of still photographs, but you could walk and you knew how a painting would be conserved, why it would be conserved, how
much it would cost. We did everything about it.
And as I say, it was called "A Future for the Past". So we moved on to mobile after Jennifer had hung, drawn and quartered me when she came back found half her budget had gone. Which her boss had given away. She said, "I know what happened, you went down and smooth-talked him into it." She said, "If I had been here, I wouldn't have given it you." I said, "Yes ma'am I know that". [laughter] So anyway she was not a lady with malice, I mean, I was told what would happen to me if I did it again, you know, I'd be sweeping streets downtown for the rest of my days.
So I then asked Lyn Ogden who was without a laboratory, to think about mobile labs. I'd seen some in my travels around the world, so we bought these vans and Lyn designed them as a laboratory: science
one side, microscopes the other for sticking pot and things. And the idea was that the lab would go out via the Advisory Council. Terribly important. We weren't doing a ring around from Ottawa which everybody was currently concerned about in those days. And they would tell us which little museums it would really help. So, one senior conservator went out and with an intern. At the beginning, it was one of these poor young people who we tried to train and I think did train—they’re mainly heads of labs now. But anyway, it was a young person and a senior person, went out with the route chosen in conjunction with the Advisory Council for that district. And being quite a political person, I made sure that the Advisory Council told all the television stations, all the newspapers, everything, "The feds are coming to town!" You know, and “It's not costing anything and they are going to help us!” So for the first few trips, I went out was the senior conservator which was fun and we had wonderful press.
NNM: Where did you go on your first trip?
BA: I think we did the first trip to New Brunswick and what was incredibly nice and I come back to these advisory councils again, one of them if we were only two or three days in a place, the chairman of the Advisory Council, what's professional in their own right, you know, curator, librarian, would come out for three days and meet-and-greet and so I didn't have to talk all day on my own which I like doing. And so we had lots of the public and nearly all the local museums and galleries and librarians would send staff. And we treated a few objects, I stuck a few pots out there and it was costing us about half a million a year for those regional labs. But it was doing so much; I mean the federal government liked it,
Bernard Ostry liked it, my boss liked it and then we had a new Assistant Secretary General and I had had one or two run-ins with him over end of the year reports and things he wrote about me and things I replied.
So I was in, I think New Brunswick, with Robert Nichols the Assistant Secretary General of the Corporation, who I reported to and he said to me, "How much do the mobile laboratories cost?" I said in round figures half a million, and he said "I'm just telling you now and I told a television reporter yesterday, that I'm taking half a million out of your budget". So I talked to the television people up there and they were very sad about it, because mobile labs had being a great hit there.
But I knew my days were numbered after some of my cryptic memos to my boss. So I was moved to National Historic Sites, where Bill Taylor was director and very old friend, and was sent out work with the archaeologist. I did some work in trying to thaw out archaeological sites in the North that never unfroze as it were and we did things like that. And, they still went on with my business with ICOM for meetings, a year in Paris, which isn't a hardship of course, and other trips around the world.
So, I was very sad to leave the Conservation Institute and the regional committees I think all supported me and protested it internationally. Secretary General of UNESCO complained to the government, but it didn't help me, “You fired him that's it?” But at the same time they dismantled the advisory councils. The Institute changed and the world has changed. It was much easier to raise money in those days, I could go and ask for 10 person years and half a million dollars and nobody killed me. I mean they might argue, "Well you can only have eight person."
But it was a whole different world and everybody, I think, believed in the Institute, from the Prime Minister down. He would ring us up sometimes, he'd come out and have coffee with staff, not with me, these people would come down to the staff room to have coffee. Which was wonderful, you know for the Conservatives I think, to know that the Prime Minister and ministers knew they were doing this.
BA: That was the reputation the CCI had. I was in, I think it was Venice. It was a press thing for ICOM the International Committee, I was chairing the meeting there. They wanted me to talk to the press and they asked why did I think conservation was important, so off I went and they said "Well politically, what's happening with conservation around the world?" and I said, "Well it's had a big boost in the Eastern Europe, most of the communist countries have got major conservation laboratories as part of their mandate to preserve culture." and so I said "The farther left you go, the better it is for education for libraries, for art, the farther right you go politically, it's a bigger struggle."
So, I am explaining all this and I am quoted internationally in The Times and all the papers around the world and in Canada. And, I get a telephone call the next day. My secretary puts her hand over the phone and said, "You're in trouble." I said "Why?" She said, "It's the Prime Minister and he's angry!" And it was Joe Clark. He had been elected while I was away. "Enjoyed so much Mr. Arthur, you know it was on BBC international all the things you said?"
"No sir.” ”Well, it was carried live in Canada, over my breakfast" he said. And I said, "Yes sir". He said, "So glad you're carrying the flag for us." He said, "It's absolutely wonderful we've got a Canadian doing that." And he was very nice and went on about how good it was. “A small matter, Mr. Arthur, I was elected while you were away and it may come as a surprise to you, I am not a left-wing government person. [laughter] I'm a conservative Prime Minister of your damned country!" So I said, "I would retract it if I can sir". He said, "I would love you to retract it but we both know you're not going to be able to." But he said, “I just want you to understand that I personally will take an interest in the Conservation Institute as my predecessors have done, but bear in mind please, when you open your mouth abroad you're representing your country and the new Prime Minister does not like to be described in that manner." "Yes sir."
I liked him personally, we had many contacts after that, but that was what was happening internationally and still is. I mean conservation in America is a struggle now. Smithsonian, talk to any of your colleagues, it is a big struggle. I think a country that doesn't preserve its culture is heading downhill. You know, I think there's an absolute necessity for people to be able to look back on tangible evidence. Be it poetry, writing, authors, I mean I include it all in the field. And conservation is very small part of that, except conservation preserves objects and paintings that people can go and see. And I think that's terribly important.
I still do and I firmly believe and did Mr. Trudeau, Pierre Trudeau and Mr. Peltier, that's the role of the Canadian government internationally and nationally and that's why he said I'd have three years to set it up as an international organization and I think it's a tragedy in a way we've dropped out of that role. I started a publication here and the same Secretary General cut that out as well. But that spread the word, because we sent it out free to international organizations.
NNM: Part of raising the profile of CCI?
BA: Yes meant when you were looking for help, which you are, you know, from the Smithsonian or Australia, they say "Oh yes, so the guys, didn't they send us some CDs and stuff and didn't we borrow one of their staff for a trip?" And so that becomes terribly important that PR, I think.
[Music: “Here’s Where Things Get Interesting” by Lee Rosevere from the album “Music for Podcasts 6.” Style: Electronic Minimalism]
NNM: Thank you to Brian Arthur and my co-host Kelly Johnson. "CCI and CHIN in Our Words" is a production of the Knowledge Sharing Division of the Canadian Conservation Institute.
Our music is by Lee Rosevere.
Who would you like us to interview as a part of this podcast? Find us on Facebook at Canadian Conservation Institute and let us know.
Next time on the podcast: “Something is inside it here, if shake, oh yeah, shake, shake how do we open it to find out what's in it-Take a hacksaw to it”. So we let Bob do it and this thing fell out just wet, wet, a green thing, piece of something, it was wet and it was slimy and it was [intake of breath].”