In this episode, your hosts, Nathalie Nadeau Mijal and Kelly Johnson, interview Season Tse. Season started working at CCI as a conservation scientist in 1984 (the same year as our previous guest, Charlie Costain). What do conservation scientists do? They work on projects aimed at understanding the material, chemical and technical aspects of heritage materials. They also research and test different conservation techniques. Season, in particular, is well known for her conservation work on ink and textiles and for testing sensitivity to light exposure. In this interview, we talked in a more general sense about her work ethic and how CCI has evolved over the years. "CCI and CHIN: In Our Words" is a podcast for museum and heritage professionals who want a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the work of the Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) and the Canadian Heritage Information Network (CHIN).
Welcome to "CCI and CHIN: In Our Words," a podcast for museum and heritage professionals who want a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the work of Canadian Conservation Institute (CCI) and the Canadian Heritage Information Network (CHIN).
In this episode, your hosts, Nathalie Nadeau Mijal and Kelly Johnson, interview Season Tse. Season started working at CCI as a conservation scientist in 1984 (the same year as our previous guest, Charlie Costain). What do conservation scientists do? They work on projects aimed at understanding the material, chemical and technical aspects of heritage materials. They also research and test different conservation techniques. Season, in particular, is well known for her conservation work on ink and textiles and for testing sensitivity to light exposure. In this interview, we talked in a more general sense about her work ethic and how CCI has evolved over the years.
To watch Season Tse working on an 18th century petticoat, have a look at the CCI video "Treatment of the Marseille Petticoat."
Send us an email with your comments, questions, or suggestions for future interviews at pch.ICCservices-CCIServices.pch@canada.ca
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More about CCI-CHIN:
CCI, a Special Operating Agency within the Department of Canadian Heritage, advances and promotes the conservation of Canada's heritage collections through its expertise in conservation science, treatment and preventive conservation. CCI works with heritage institutions and professionals to ensure these heritage collections are preserved and accessible to Canadians now and in the future.
CHIN, a Special Operating Agency within the Department of Canadian Heritage, offers valuable collections management resources to the Canadian museum community and online public access to millions of collections records. CHIN assists Canadian museums in documenting, managing, and sharing information about their collections, which in turn ensures that this information is accessible now and in the future.
Credits:
Thank you to our guest, Season Tse.
CCI and CHIN: In Our Words is a production of the Canadian Conservation Institute, Department of Canadian Heritage
Nathalie Nadeau Mijal, Producer and Co-host
Kelly Johnson, Co-host
Pop-Up Podcasting, Production assistance
Music by Lee Rosevere
Duration: 00:35:12
[Music: “We Don’t Know How it Ends” by Lee Rosevere from the album “Music for Podcasts 6.” Style: Electronic Minimalism]
Season Tse (ST): I'd say, always remember it's a privilege to work at CCI and don't take it for granted and CCI is a wonderful place and I think everyone who's been here says CCI is a wonderful place and the synergy is wonderful I think, take advantage of the synergy and learn from each other yeah it's a wonderful place.
Nathalie Nadeau Mijal (NNM): I’m Nathalie Nadeau Mijal and this is CCI and CHIN: In Our Words.
Hi, I’m Nathalie Nadeau Mijal. For today’s episode, you’ll be hearing an interview that my supervisor, Kelly Johnson, and I did with Season Tse. Season was a conservation scientist at the Canadian Conservation Institute from 1984 to 2018. What is a conservation scientist, you might be wondering? They work on projects aimed at broadening the understanding of heritage materials as well as test and research different conservation techniques. Season in particular is well known for her work on ink, textiles and testing sensitivity to light exposure. In this interview, we talked in a more general sense about her work ethic and how CCI has evolved over the years.
Stay tuned after the interview to hear an excerpt from Season’s retirement party.
We begin with Season talking about her ability to bring people together…
[Music fades.]
ST: I think I'm one of those people who see once I know what a person can do or know a piece of information, I see what this information can do for like a client or colleague or something so when I see something good-- I see ok well this person really need to know because it's really good for me-- this person will really appreciate that so I always like to put those together. Whether it is a good paper for a colleague to whom I know might want it or for me, “Oh this person really need to meet this person because they can come together.” So, I see synergy, I'm one of those people. I don't know I just like that when I have a good thing or when I know a good thing I want to share it with people and so that goes with the way I work with clients or you know just relating with colleagues. So I like that, in how I developed my career.
KJ: It's interesting. Were you born in Canada?
ST: No, I was born in China, but then I went to Hong Kong when I was very young.
KJ: Where was your first location in Canada?
ST: St John’s, Newfoundland.
KJ: It was! That’s interesting. That's why you went to Memorial. How old were you when you first came?
ST: I was 14. So, I was a teenager.
KJ: Okay, and then from there to here to Ottawa for Carlton at Carlton?
ST: Actually, from Saint John’s, I went to Waterloo to study for five years in Waterloo University and then from there I came to Carleton to do my Master’s degree. As soon as I finished my research I got the job at CCI and I started in 1984.
KJ: And how would you qualify the training that you that you received?
ST: I think I had the best training. It's a combination of, you know, the two summers I spent at the Marine Research Lab in Torbay, Newfoundland. That was the best training I had in lab skills, lab techniques just to do the mundane, repetitive stuff how to have good technique so learn that and all my work term experiences taught me how you know just broadened my field and then my two years training in my master degree taught me how to do research again, how to do lab work very carefully and when I came here I had the great fortune to work with Helen Burgess, which really helped me for the next ten years.
KJ: And that's where you got more training I guess on learning about conservation?
ST: Yeah, Helen was the best mentor. I would not have, I cannot think of any one better because she is she's just very well recognized in the conservation field everyone knows that she is sharp she is a good teacher so I learned a lot of that from her and all the lab skills that I learned how to do DPs you know like a degree of polymerization for a cellulose— all of that I learned from her. So, I owe my start in conservation mainly to her and then of course I got to know other people you know like Stephan Michalski. So, all these people helped me shape how I look at conservation and how to approach my work.
KJ: It's such a blessing too, isn't it? To have people that share their knowledge like that and to be able to benefit from their knowledge and adapt it to your reality as well and to your needs for your job.
ST: Absolutely and I think that's why because I've received so much, that's why I want to give because, I would not have this to start of this without these people helping me then now that I have something I need to give big you know. That's how you benefit and how you give back. I think, what I give is what I received. So, I think I can give because I don't have a lot of people in other places don't have the security of their job. So you know what their security is what they know and I think it's it as Canadians, as workers of the federal government, I feel very privileged that we have the security of the work. I don't have to feel that I need to keep everything because my job depends on it. I'm able to give freely, not to only to Canadians but also internationally. I think in other places you have to protect your knowledge because people can take advantage of that. And, I've met colleagues that are also so generous to people and the RCE. They are so generous that I thought, if they are so generous, they tell me everything I have to do the same thing I have to pass it on so but I think it's the privilege of the job security I think that and I'm very thankful for that, right.
NNM: Do you think that that generosity with knowledge and that interest in teaching is something that kind of extends to CCI? Because of that security that you were saying comes from working as an agency for the government, people have a little bit more of that comfort so they're able to share more and teach more?
ST: Absolutely! I think you know CCI that has a reputation of very generous with knowledge. All my colleagues are very generous, so I'm not the only one I'm just part of this whole body who is very generous with sharing and giving and because of that security, because of, you know, we don't need to kind of claw ourselves up you know and I think that that is a gift that the Canadian government has given not only to the Canadian institutions but to the world because of this security. We can afford to be generous because we have been given so much and I think it was yes Stefan [Michalski] reminded me I think I talked about that in the speech that we are so blessed to have CCI. We've been given so much, that really the only way to give back, not only to preserve our own heritage, is to spread that knowledge to help others, the rest of the world in in whatever capacity we can to help them preserve their heritage and I think that is a gift that the Canadian government, the taxpayers are giving to the world and they might not even know it!
KJ: Well, hopefully this podcast will be a way to promote that and let Canadians know about what CCI does and how fortunate we are to have in our country an organization like this and people willing to share their knowledge and help preserve Canadians’ history.
KJ: How long would you say it took you to feel comfortable in the world of conservation?
ST: I started going to conferences and that’s also due to the generosity of CCI. I went to the first conference in 1988. It was this paper conference hosted by CCI. Actually, Helen Burgess was the one who posted the paper symposium 1988 and that was probably my first conference and I gave my first paper there because we've just actually at that point I had four years of data on enzymes, how they perform and things like that and what the effect of paper. So, we had a paper and that was my first paper that I presented. Helen was the co-author but there was I can remember the nervousness of that and you know in front of all these “who’s who” in paper conservation but I think that was really important that Helen had connected me with some of the “who's who” in the conservation field and so I think that's probably my first experience where I know something more about enzymes and a lot of people and then I start working with Sherry [Guild] in the paper lab on how to use enzymes you know just testing enzymes on treatments and so I think that is probably the first where--yeah that was four years afterwards—that I started feeling a little bit more comfortable in this one thing. I still don't know a lot about, well, I started to know a little bit of a conservation, paper conservation and treatments but and I did the analysis using a degree of polymerization, so I I've been sort of just in the background doing sort of the basic analysis testing and things like that. So I always feel that it's important to start from the bottom. You know all the ins and outs and the flaws and the strengths of different analysis. So, when you present something you know how solid, how certain you can be in what you say because you know what you've done. So, I think all of those five years is a really good foundation and then from then on Helen also got involved with a number of larger projects and I started getting involved with those paper research projects and then I started getting involved. So, then I broadened a little bit by little bit from different projects and I work with Helen for a good ten years. So, all of those time was yeah it's just build the basis and of course I read her papers I listen to how she talks and I know how good she is as a teacher so I learned a lot from that too. How does she communicate? Not only does she know how to do it, how to summarize the results, how to write it, how to present it, like the whole all the whole process from you know the thinking, the doing you know look at the whole process? Yeah, I learned it from her.
KJ: So, you started working mainly in with paper but then eventually and in your words at you're— again I'm going to refer to your to your into your speech at your party many times, you'll see-- but you then said that you made the switch from paper to textile and can you talk to us a little bit about that why did what was the interest there or was it a need or how did that happen?
ST: There was a need and also at the time around 1990 I started realizing you know so I want to work not so much under Helen because I've built up some knowledge and some technical skills. I thought I could apply that, what I learned, to textiles and at the time there was no one to help study textiles in conservation science. So in CCI there was there was no one and one of the questions from at the time I think there were the focus groups and the focus group was I remember was 1995 in the Calgary focus groups. It became clear that we need someone to focus on textiles conservation treatments and things like that but one of the big problems was silk. There was no one in CCI at the time to look at the deterioration of silk. How do you measure it? What is the effect of treatment on silk? You know, what happens? So, there was no one to do that so when I proposed that maybe I can look at the characterization of silk to CCI management and it was accepted it was actually then we spent the next five years developing first of all technique to and so how do you because prior to that is all mechanical. You need you know the Instron to test the strength of fibers but at the time we don't have an Instron. We don't have a controlled environment to test silk. So, the other way was well we do what we're good at which is degree of polymerization which measure the molecular weight of silk. So then we spent the next five years, we have a large project looking at silk deterioration and the effect of treatment on silk. So we had a whole project was five years and we presented that work.
NMM: Do you think there's a reason why silk hadn't been studied up until then?
ST: It was— well first of all there were I mean there are techniques there out there but we didn't think that was sensitive enough and then we want to find the technique in the technique of using molecular way analysis was new at the time. It was 1995 so it was relatively new so we thought well we if we want to study sit we need to master that technique so that we could study the effective treatments and light aging and this sort of thing so we thought what that would be a good start because if you want to study a material you first of all need to know how to analyze it, how to measure changes in them, right? So and you need something that is sensitive. At the time, there was Greg Young who was also considering using thermal analysis but he had other priorities. So he started looking at silk using thermal analysis but other priorities took him away and he was not able to get back to it but he had the full intention to actually develop thermal analysis to study silk.
NNM: That would be a different way of doing it from what you developed.
ST: That's right, yeah. So, now maybe today with our new scientists here maybe that's something they could look into using thermal analysis.
NNM: We just gave someone a research project.
ST: Yeah, possibly!
KJ: I'm just wondering… can you explain to us how conservation science fits within CCI for people who might not know so much about it?
ST: Conservation science if we were to look at—there is the analytical side and then there is the sort of the prevention and the environmental aspects of conservation that is the focus of the work by the preservation services, right? So, there's two aspects of the science and I think both of them are considered science one is you know sort of the micro aspect looking at the materials. So, I think I always think that conservation science is to support what conservators do because they're the ones who are handling the objects now there is one aspect of conservation science which is sort of the scholastic part of it where you study materials you know artists material and that's a whole different area which is on its own-- its own scholarship so its own value. That's different, but the day-to-day analysis of things I always see it as how do I help a conservator to either treat an object or care for an object or plan an exhibition for an object. Like, I'm just thinking of my own work with microfade testing. I never thought that the testing itself would be the focus. Those are just steps to help a conservator do their work, make more knowledgeable decisions and make more accurate, more better choices right so I always think of my work from my point of view and I know others, my colleagues feel the same way that their work while interesting and fascinating, they're there to help. We are to support conservators who are at the frontline and I think preservation services, all of the ingenuity that goes into it, is to preserve ultimately the object but the conservators are the frontline people who are dealing with the objects. I see it that way. That that's my own conviction that I need to focus on doing my work very well because I want that to be… the data, the information I produce is the best it can be and useful yeah to report and useful. It has to be useful.
NNM: Do you find that aspect of your work fulfilling? Is that one of the things that you derive satisfaction from that your work is going to support the work of others and other people are relying on you?
ST: For me it is. I know sometimes it's very easy because you can get into one little nook or one detail that is so fascinating you just keep following it but then I have to call hold myself back and say, “Wait a minute! So your time is spent, paid by the taxpayer for a purpose!” And I have to kind of hold myself back so that I can balance out what I do to set by my own curiosity and what I need for my job right right so so I I have to hold back because it's very easy you know the world is a fascinating place so you can just easily just go into the one area and just keep going and you know if you don't discipline yourself it's just very easy.
KJ: Can you tell us a little bit how you see conservation science, how it changed throughout your career. You were working for CCI for 34 years in those 34 years have you noticed major changes or did the pendulum go from one side all the way to the other and then back somehow or could you could you explore that a little bit with us?
ST: You know when we first started, when I first started and 34 years ago I think having a PhD is very rare. David Grattan had a PhD and so some people had but it was not one of us some of our best scientists have bachelor degrees but they were most knowledgeable, very knowledgeable but as time goes by nowadays that all of our new scientists all have PhDs. So, the degree of academic training has also increased.
NNM: How do you think that's changed the work that's done?
ST: I think with the PhD training you get a very in-depth training in one area that's how you know you know a lot a lot about one field and so for these for new scientists then they didn't then need to apply what they know in that one field. In conservation sciences, it’s broad, it's varied, right? So, you know, you're not just looking at one plastic or you looking at plastic with many background, with many variations. So, it's a challenge and so, I think the new scientists that that we hire, you can see that they are also interested in not only in what they know very well, but they are also interested in seeing, “Okay, how do I use this to study that?” You know? So, there's that curiosity I think that's the key that you see in the new scientists that we have brought to CCI. They have got this curiosity and that love of materials and be able to apply and also being meticulous at the same time. So it's kind of hard that you have this yeah you have a broad view but you have to be meticulous.
NNM: Maybe we can ask about a little bit more about what CCI was like when you started to work?
ST: Well, back then things are very different. There were a lot of freedom right and I think when CCI started and then when this organization begins you need that freedom to explore and just you know just to see people work together and not to not put too much restraint on it. The “golden years” where you know you just you want to look at something go ahead do that do that right so and it's in this great and they were you know at the time we were still synthesizing this toxic stuff you know we were eating in the lab you know could. You have the lab here and then there's a coffee table here and okay you drop what you did and come down have a coffee and go back, like things like that. Health and safety was very different. And we work very, like for our group at the time it was the conservation processes research so our we work very closely with conservators developing treatment we're there for paper textiles or archeology whatever so so we were you know we're always back and forth, right? So, there was a lot of synergy and then as things later on in the years we need to be more accountable and I think it was some adjustment to us, because you're so free you can do whatever you want and you just have to write a monthly report okay you just have to tell your boss what did you do last month and that's that's it! Now some you stillhave some accountability but later on it becomes you have to have key commitments you have to say well what have you done and the project proposals started coming and then then you have to write down work this is what you want to do this way. So, it becomes gradually becomes you know you can see you know the accountability you need to have more of that and I think it's a necessary evil because you know you can't just keep doing what you want. Like, looking at myself as an example I don't like writing things up, I just like to do it. So, I would do it and then there's a number of projects where I've got great data but because I didn't have to publish it or no one pushes me to publish… it was just sitting there and I ended up never publishing it. You know, we spent time on it the data is good. So I really appreciate sort of the discipline that came just the discipline to write it up for the reports because they're for clients you have to do it and then later on you know the writing up, it just makes retrieving information so much easier for everyone. So that discipline comes and I think that's probably the biggest change from the sort of the laissez-faire, do whatever you want.
KJ: And then when would you say the change started to occur approximately…?
ST: About 20 years ago, I would say. Yeah, because I we have to write proposals for you know like the silk project well what do you want to do what do you and to do this year what did you do so you had to report on the results things like that. And I think in the 80s, it's the golden year because funding—there was no questions asked you know just people were you know everything was free but later on you have to be accountable.
KJ: That's interesting. Would you say that's one of the striking changes that occurred here at CCI throughout your career, was this this need for to become a little bit more accountable and to be a little bit more structured in a sense?
ST: And also the field of conservation science has grown significantly over the last 20-30 years right and with these European Union big projects you know where you have multiple countries combining they do what you know like they have like that kind of manpower that we don't here at CCI. So we actually learned to be very smart and doing things that are very targeted. Yeah. I think that is another field where when I first started well there was very little, so anything it's a plus. So now we have to be very careful, very targeted and I think CCI is known for our leadership in certain things. You know, we excel in certain things and I think we've done that very well and I think over the last many years we learn to be very specific. Yeah instead of “Let's do more of this.” No, no we can't afford to do more of something else somebody else is doing it you know the EU projects you know they've got 10-20 years, millions of euros pouring through those let them do those right? So, let's do things that are targeted for either for Canadian collections or that is unique to us in Canada, which would also benefit other people. So, I think like the microfade project is one of those things where, you know, we didn't develop it but we have a need for it so we use it and we take it and use it for the benefit of our Canadian clients but at the same time our knowledge also benefits others…
NNM: It's interesting how those global changes can have such an impact on what ends up being the work that that you do.
ST: I think CCI has always… I think 34 years ago there were less institutions doing the work that we do. Then over the years, it has grown and they have greater capacities to do some things so we just became smarter and we were good at some things and we become better at those things. Like you know, in risk assessment and dye analysis and all of those things. So we become you know of instead of being good at like everything good at these like specific areas and so we become standard of excellence in those things, which I think it's important.
NNM: Has that changed the way that CCI is viewed around the world because now we're sort of becoming more specific in these areas?
ST: People know the depth of knowledge. We have that reputation so and I think that's just how it should be right so you start off with flat and then you've got these bumps here that that become greater knowledge and then you've got these very peaks of people with knowledge and not that I think we stop trying to be peaks everywhere because we know we don't have that like we're not Canadian taxpayers didn’t fund us for that. But, in the areas that we're very good, let’s encourage that and I think I think that's what CCI has become instead of this flat overall mountain good in a lot of things we just become you know, specialized in certain things and there let other people do other things like “Great!” You know and the iron gall ink project was another thing like that. I said I'm not I'm not going to compete with you know the 20 country, EU funded projects that are going on in in Europe, but we have specific questions so I'm going to use what they have learned and I'm going to apply it to what our collection needs. We have special knowledge that is different, that sets us apart and so and that's I think that's how we should yeah we should develop knowledge—not to try to be everything to everyone. You can't do that.
KJ: And from your point of view what makes Canada unique as far as our heritage and/or the projects or you know, what stands out?
ST: Actually, the CCI is in a unique position that we provide service to all of Canadian institutions and in I believe in all the world people you know who are funded like the museums they have fun they fund their analytical services for their own institutions. So, if you're a small museum you don't have that you don't have access to any of this but in Canadian institutions, we have any publicly owned institutions can benefit from services from CCI. That I think unique to the world like
NNM: Our clients enrich the work that's being done, in a way.
ST: Yeah, and like we were you know we were at a microfade user meeting and that was what came out was that okay well this institution had their own tester and and they have their own analytical services but they only do work for them but if you don't have you're not part of that then you're out. So, there's very few—if any-- organizations that would provide services to the masses of small institutions that doesn't have money to pay for or they would have to have them maybe and you have to pay for all the services right? But, you know the Canadian institutions are very, very fortunate that a lot of our services are free to them. That is unique yeah and we and I don't know if the institution's know that but the rest of the world they don't-- that's not how it works.
KJ: I would like to get your advice for an emerging scientist maybe if there's any words of wisdom that you would have to share with anybody?
ST: I think it’s to be curious and always learning and look at every opportunity to learn about materials and keep an open mind and do the best you can and excel in what you do and keep improving and I think over the years I would say there's not a day that I go by I don't say, “I'm learning something today,” whether it is a small thing about material or just learning how to write better or how to communicate better. Like, always keep improving and keep moving moving forward and also I would say for CCI if you were gonna work for CCI I think probably one of the most important thing is to appreciate you know we're funded by the Canadian taxpayer to maintain Canadian collections. Keep the big picture in mind. It's a privilege to be here so make the most of every moment and use what you know that you've been trained for in your in undergrad and graduate schools and apply it and be flexible and I I'd say always remember it's a privilege to work at CCI and don't take it for granted and CCI is a wonderful place and I think everyone who's been here says CCI is a wonderful place and the synergy is wonderful. I think take advantage of the synergy and learn from each other. Yeah, it's a wonderful place.
[Music: “Where Was I?” by Lee Rosevere from the album “Music for Podcasts 6.” Style: Electronic Minimalism]
NNM: Season Tse’s retirement party was held at CCI in October 2018. In this recording, Season talks about the importance of the social life at CCI and then goes on to tell the story of the first conversation she had with Stefan Michalski, a Senior Conservation Scientist at CCI.
[Music fades.]
ST: And then, my coffee buddies and you're more than my coffee buddies. Ellen, Jane, Tara, Jen, and you're all here. I think the coffee time is to me more than just social because there's so much cross-pollination. You hear about who's doing what and you hear that and you see what the connections are and I just I'm very grateful for that. It's not only just a morale booster but to me it's really just part of CCI.
And Stefan, Stefan. I think probably it was about maybe 1987. I had my first conversation with Stefan because I think we were on the way back or to the ICCG conference in Victoria and since then and many a conversation after that. I think what Stefan talked to me about set my attitude to what my job. That this CCI the existence of these is a great privilege. A great privilege because of the funding that we get from the government because of the support from management because of the interacting at the active working between scientists and conservators and the support we get from all the staff who are not conservators or scientists. That combination is a privilege and I have never taken that for granted. That my job it's not to build my own career to be to do reputation but my job is to make the taxpayers money count and to me, it just stuck with me that I keep that always in the forefront and he explained to me at one time using chocolate bars and per capita of chocolate bars or something. I know what he meant but I couldn't repeat it, but I knew that that was a big deal that the CCI’s existence is a big deal and that we need to take advantage of it and benefit not only our Canadian museums but also in the worldwide community of conservation.
So, now, I think I'm glad I'm the one who has the last say. Many of you, in my mind, you're so brilliant and gifted and talented. You know I make jewelry so this makes sense to you. Many of you are superstars. You are like one of those gems and so I recognize you as that but to me, I am not. I don't consider myself one of those, but I am a very good connector. I must say, I'm very good and that's the part that I play the best and probably that's what you would probably notice. I see connections in people. I see connection and opportunities and I like to put them together and that is what I like to do most and I just congratulate that I get to work with these superstars. All you superstars and I'm so glad that I'm a part of this.
[Music: “Here’s Where Things Get Interesting” by Lee Rosevere from the album “Music for Podcasts 6.” Style: Electronic Minimalism]
NNM: Thank you to Season Tse and to my co-host Kelly Johnson.
CCI and CHIN: In Our Words is a production of the Canadian Conservation Institute, Department of Canadian Heritage.
Our music is by Lee Rosevere.
Production assistance provided by Pop-Up Podcasting.
Who would you like us to interview as a part of this podcast? Find us on Facebook at Canadian Conservation Institute and let us know.
Next time on the podcast…
Brian Arthur: In three years, you were to make the CCI the most important conservation Institute in the world. If you can't do that say now because if you don't do that will put you in a rowing boat with one oar and push you back to England.